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Poster: glenn Date: Mar 8, 2007 10:57am
Forum: opensource_movies Subject: Re: Shut Down This Site!

And now you introduce irrelevant well-known 'conspiracy theories' in an attempt to make yourself seem rational and me a 'conspiracy nut'.
There are always people who will make claims of responsibility for any famous atrocity, are you implying that all of them are correct?

"That would be cosidered enough proof to 99% of rational people."

No, I think rational people actually look at the evidence and make up their own mind.

"My point is made without needing to introduce and evidence."

This is exactly my complaint, you make wild allegations that are nothing short of ignorant, and then clainm no need for evidence.

"The taliban shletered bin laden who was behind 9/11"

This one is utterly ridiculous, show me one mainstream news source that makes any sort of claim remotely supporting a connection between the Taliban and bin Laden.

Osama bin Laden has closer ties to George W. Bush than to the Taliban.

Please just keep posting your wild and unsupported speculations, you are proving my point that you are either ignorant of the facts, or are deliberately misrepresenting them for some purpose.

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Poster: Telephone Toughguy Date: Mar 8, 2007 11:40am
Forum: opensource_movies Subject: Re: Shut Down This Site!

Obviously you are mistaken and are not reading your own posts. Stop trying to make it look like I am the irrational one as everyone who reads this post will see that the simple untruth about the lack of connections made by yourself is contradictory to the findings of the 9/11 commission, video's posted here (search 911, jihad, bin laden and numerous videos of terrorist glorifying and taking credit for 911). There is your proof, no what exactly do you consider proof that terrorists did not attack the WTC on 9/11? I'd love to see that, especally if it's that vague BBC report about buidling 7 falling before it fell. In today's world of instantaneous communicatio and 24 hour media, I fear the days of new conspiracies are over... thank goodness. I will completely ignore your personal attacks on me that arise from your frustration in knowing you are wrong and trying to make me look like an asshole. Newsflash, I am an asshole and am proud of it. I surely am not a follower and am skeptic about everything, read my posts... I don't think you are reading them. I think you are reacting to them in a robotic, psychotic autoresponse and may even be pulling my leg with all this because it's wacky. For a moment I thought you had come to some rational compromise and would stop but it seems you have to have the last word. I will not allow that.. EVER.

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Poster: glenn Date: Mar 8, 2007 12:09pm
Forum: opensource_movies Subject: Re: Shut Down This Site!

..."what exactly do you consider proof that terrorists did not attack the WTC on 9/11?"

I never said that terrorists did not attack, obviously when thousands of people are murdered, it is by definition a terrorist act.

"I will completely ignore your personal attacks on me that arise from your frustration in knowing you are wrong and trying to make me look like an asshole. Newsflash, I am an asshole and am proud of it."

I'm not making personal attacks, I'm merely stating as fact that you are ignorant, either in the sense that you do not know or in the sense that you are ignoring the facts.

"For a moment I thought you had come to some rational compromise and would stop but it seems you have to have the last word. I will not allow that.. EVER."

Yes, that's certainly what I thought, that you would not give me a link to any credible source that connects, for instance, the Taliban and Osama bin Laden, or perhaps that shows that any of:
Saddam Hussein
The Taliban
were connected by some sort of evidence with the events of 9/11/2001,
OR that the invasion of Iraq or the bombing of Afghanistan were in response to any threat to the people of the United States.

Rather than 'prove me wrong' by offering any one single bit of evidence, you have made wild speculations about what my beliefs are, and plainly stated that you will not allow me to have the last word.

I'm not interested in the last word, since we aren't having an argument or a debate or anything like it. To do that, would mean that our responses would address the points the other has introduced.

You are trying very hard to discredit me as some sort of conspiracy nut, while I am merely wondering why. You have made some very strange and obviously untrue claims to do so, and it almost seems as if you are trying to discredit yourself as well... as if you want people to think that only wackos would discuss 9/11 and the subsequent events, whatever opinion they might express. As if you are simply trying to suppress all discussion on the topic whatsoever.

It has become quite obvious that your ignorance is of the intentional type, rather than merely not knowing.

I really wonder why you have deliberately taken a willfully ignorant position, or rather, numerous willfully ignorant and even conflicting positions.

Since you have clearly stated your intent to have the last word, I eagerly await your next post.

For anyone who is confused by this discussion, just go back to the beginning of the thread and read it. It's pretty self-explanitory.

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Poster: Telephone Toughguy Date: Mar 8, 2007 12:56pm
Forum: opensource_movies Subject: Re: Shut Down This Site!

Amazing... I am done, you win. I was wrong. Osama had absolutely nothing to do with 9/11. Al queada has nothing to do with the Taliban. Eurasia has always been at war with Eastasia. You are free to believe what ever you want.

Take care

PS Remember, I agreed with you that the stuff should not be taken down and that the site should obviously not be shut down. I agree about freeflow of information at all levels and agree with you that everyone should investigate and determine the truth for themselves.

The conspiracy nut references were coming from the average persons perspective of people who believe in alternate theories of 9/11 that I have heard like the jews did it, bush did it, etc. I don't know you and you might not be crazy at all and it was not my intent to insult you, ok?

This post was modified by Telephone Toughguy on 2007-03-08 20:56:23

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Poster: glenn Date: Mar 9, 2007 12:43am
Forum: opensource_movies Subject: Re: Shut Down This Site!

Well, I suggest that before you listen to anybody's THEORY on what happened, you put together a list of what facts are available.

Maybe even read the 9/11 commission report, the part where they say that even their best theory has a low likelihood of occurrence.

I'm not wanting to insult you either... if you seriously want to know more about those terrorist attacks, you might really like I said, put together a list of what is an actual fact... there are very few of those, but from the facts, you can piece together what probably didn't happen.

The problem is that a lot of accounts of the events make some unwarranted assumptions, and leap to unsound conclusions from those assumptions.

For instance, I accept as a fact that aircraft hit both WTC towers and the Pentagon, but I think the evidence is pretty inconclusive as to who made that happen, and how, and why... and even which particular aircraft they were.

There were some pretty puzzling things going on that day, and some pretty wild coincidences, unless they weren't coincidences.

There was also a lot of things that seem to have happened that can't have actually happened.

And some strange stuff that seems almost impossible... like a hijacker seems to have brought his passport with him on a suicide mission where he wasn't planning on crossing any borders, and the paper passport escaped the flaming explosion of jet fuel and landed intact on the street, but that same ball of jet fuel reduced a steel framed building into lengths of steel and powdered concrete, which fell to earth at free-fall speeds... or so it seems.

I once saw a magician turn a woman into a tornado of flame, and then reconstitute her from thin air... or so it seems.

I've read some reports in the Times about gold bars in the basement that seem pretty strange... and those same gold bars were recovered from wreckage, at least some of them, but the wreckage had molten pools of steel, and gold melts easier than steel... and no reports of any melted gold bars...

I wonder why the wreckage was carted away and sold as scrap before a thorough criminal investigation, and why there were tiny fragments of human bone found on top of buildings nearby...

I could make all kinds of speculation about how or why these things happened, but it isn't speculation to say that there was no evidence connecting Iraq or Afghanistan with those events... even US government representatives have said that.

It's pretty obvious the whole thing (the towers, the pentagon, the 4 apparently hijacked planes) has some sort of connection, so to me it's pretty obvious that there was a conspiracy of some sort going on,

(it's a conspiracy any time 2 or more people plan a crime and then carry out any part of that crime)

but I'd not want to speculate about who conspired, to do what, or how they did it or why.

Someone benefited though, there were some strange stock market profits just before the stock market closed down that week, and there were the brand new insurance policies on the buildings in New York that paid pretty well.

Then there was that strange story about the government having misplaced some billions of dollars that was big in the news on 9/10/2001, and not on the news at all the next day, even though the computers with the records that would have allowed the government to trace what happened to the missing money were apparently destroyed when something hit the Pentagon... maybe one of the best surveilled sites on Earth, yet no pictures of anything recognisable hitting the building, which puzzles me.

But I don't have any theory to connect any of this, it just seems stranger to me than the Warren commission deciding that a single bullet did so much damage in November 1953 in Dallas. I can believe that a bullet can ricochet in a lot of strange ways, and change direction radically, and maybe even end up in perfect condition after hitting at least 4 bones in 2 bodies and breaking through a glass windshield and all of that...

...but I really can't come up with a theory that sounds plausible for 9/11, any more than the 9/11 commission was able to do so. Like they said, their best theory had a low likelihood of occurrence.

But I appreciate that you weren't trying to insult me, and I didn't intend my calling you ignorant as an insult either.

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Poster: Telephone Toughguy Date: Mar 9, 2007 9:01am
Forum: opensource_movies Subject: Re: Shut Down This Site!

Well a healthy skeptisism is just that. The only things I can explain off the top of my head is that the scrap all went to Jersey and the garbage business is mob controlled so maybe they wanted to go through and recover valuables or something. The bones could be several things from the initial explosion or seagulls picking up body parts and shitting them out or dropping them. It has rained frogs without the help of god before, due to upcurrents and storm activity. I'll look through what is out there and I always keep an open mind which is why I was insulted, but it's water under the bridge. Thanks, and by the way... here is some background music.

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Poster: glenn Date: Mar 9, 2007 11:01am
Forum: opensource_movies Subject: Re: Shut Down This Site!

Maybe seagulls... that's at least plausible... but don't try to explain it until you can get more info, that's a healthy attitude. There's some diagonally cut steel support columns that I'm pretty sure weren't cut by any kind of birds. That's a kind of funny thing to find if the building just collapsed under its own weight, all at once.

It seems that a pretty unusual sort of very hot fire would be needed to burn through all of the steel supports in the building at once, and leave melted puddles of steel 2 months later. If the supports didn't all fail on every floor, and uniformly around the core of the building, and even the center core itself, all at once and perfectly evenly, the towers would have fallen on their sides.

Imagine the disaster that would have been. I don't know if you believe in God, but something pretty amazing happened that day, something very much like a miracle.

I know, some people say that everything is a miracle, but I generally expect things to behave as the laws of physics would predict them to behave, and I wouldn't have expected both buildings to fall straight down, with no resistance to keep them from free-falling into the massive excavation of the basement and sub-basement levels.

I know strange things can happen, and there sure were a lot of strange things happening that day.

Seems as if there must be some connection between the missing planes, the missing passengers, the collapsed towers and the other impact at the Pentagon, the confusion at NORAD, and some of the subsequent events.

Maybe there's no connection at all, but it sure would be nice to get news reports that were at least plausible, instead internally inconsistent. Wildly unlikely things that the news reported as fact, didn't have sources or evidence, and sometimes the news on one station would use the news on other stations as their sources...

Keep up the healthy skepticism, and keep researching anything you want to know the truth about. If you believe in God, maybe you would want to pray for some true answers, and if you don't believe in God, you might start asking yourself what else can produce seemingly miraculous events.

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Poster: FreeDem Date: Mar 8, 2007 12:32pm
Forum: opensource_movies Subject: Re:Flame wars

Not to get into a 2 person flame war (and get flamed from both sides) but there is quite a few videos that can clarify all sides of this.

For the first point Kieth Olbermann said it way better than I ever could and that video is here.
few people have been more eloquent on the point.

Secondly I agree that the loose brains group is nuts. I suspect (but cannot prove) that they are a Republican group trying to make all who think official stories are a bit weird sound nuts.

There is however a lot more sensible research, that has a lot more questions than answers, but even that is a first step to understanding. Few folk have had more focus or energy in pursuing answers to what happened than the so called "Jersey Girls" who lost their husbands in 9-11.

They have taken all they have discovered and many of the questions and put them in another video that has no fantasy physics, or impossible conspiracies, or any unvetted information. That video is here
the timeline they talk about is here
for anyone who wants to see the range of vetted information.

The BBC also did a terrific series of three one hour shows that also dealt with the reality, and history of who and what the Islamists were and are that deserves a look here:

And finally an Afgan-American Tamim Asary who knew the real story before most of the rest of us wrote a letter of caution days after 9-11 that called for intelligence rather than a feel-good "bomb them till the bricks bounce" that every American felt in those days that brought my own jingoism to a quick halt at that time. Now that letter can be found here:

Even if nearly every word from this administration regarding the threat was true, the rank stupidity, incompetence, corruption, and stated goal that there be a permanent war to give them power, makes them more dangerous than any gang of thugs that are at the margins even, of the society that they live in, aside from being halfway around the world.

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Poster: Telephone Toughguy Date: Mar 8, 2007 1:41pm
Forum: opensource_movies Subject: Re: Re:Flame wars

Although slightly touching on a conspiracy theory about republicans in itself, your post had a lot of things to back up whatever side you are on (or not on?) I'll definitely check them out... Thanks for providing those links.

Is it time to go home yet?

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Poster: FreeDem Date: Mar 8, 2007 3:02pm
Forum: opensource_movies Subject: Re: More info and fixed links

Unfortunately there is no preview or edit on this so a few of the links need help the "Jersey girls" video did not work but here is a new try
and the Tamim Ansary letter had an extra period at the end of the sentence that caused that link to fail, so here it is again without the period at the end

As I pointed out before the horrors of incompetence, and stupidity are so extreme as to suggest that they are deliberate. Peter Galbraith had a ring side seat and listed the incompetence in stunning detail, but said that he believed it stupidity beyond any possibility of planning, even in the face of his own attempts to educate that eventually forced his retirement.

In his book he has a picture of a room full of records of Saddam's secret police, who they were and, who the informants were etc (basically a laundry list of the names and addresses of the insurgents and what they did for Saddam)Nir Rosen has an article here that tells what happened to that room full of records here

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Poster: glenn Date: Mar 9, 2007 1:38am
Forum: opensource_movies Subject: Re: Re:Flame wars

Thanks for the links.

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Poster: realtimeentertainment11 Date: Apr 25, 2007 3:43am
Forum: opensource_movies Subject: Re: Re:Flame wars

Wow, out of all the things, I never thought stuff like this was happening on this site!